Treating Racial Trauma, with Dr. Catherine Jackson (transcript & Audio)

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Amy Watson 0:03
Hey everybody, and welcome back to the listeners afforda Wednesday’s with Watson podcast. I am so excited about today’s episode because today meets my mission or you guys know how important counseling is. On the Wednesdays with Watson podcast, you’ve heard my story, you know that it is an integral part of our healing. We have been in a month long series on racial trauma. To this point, it is June the 15th of 2022. Those episodes are still some of the least listened to episodes, which makes me double down if I’m being honest with you. And so I appreciate you guys being here. I know that you could be anywhere. But today, I’m excited that Dr. Katherine Jackson has agreed to come on to the podcast. I’m going to introduce her here in just a second. But it was really, really important to me, if we were going to do a series on racial trauma to have a therapist on that lives in the community that we were talking about. And so this series on the Wednesdays with Watson podcast, and the whole month of June, has been on racial trauma. And so today, I welcome Dr. Katherine Jackson, to the microphone. Now she is going to do something really cool for us at the end. And throughout the episode, she’ll be telling us a little bit more about herself. She is just as passionate as I am about this guys. And she is going to bring something to us today. I do want to say, though, that like every other therapist that we have on this podcast, Dr. Jackson is here for educational purposes only. This is not equal therapy. This may make you and I do hope that it does spur you to therapy. But this does not equal therapy. And her her presence here today is merely as a favor to me on so many levels, as we are working on this series on racial trauma where a person that does not live in the black and brown community is trying my best to educate people on trauma in that community that aren’t is not another communities. And all month we’ve been talking about how that has happened in childhood, because that’s what we’ve been focusing on. So with all of that being said, Dr. Jackson, I would love to welcome you to the Wednesday’s with Watson podcasts.

Dr. Catherine Jackson 2:13
Thank you, thank you for having me. It’s gonna be a deep conversation is a big topic, but I’m hoping that we can keep it where people can digest and not get feel like they’re being triggered or trolled.

Amy Watson 2:28
Yeah, I think that’s a really good point. And a really good point. And I’ve crafted the questions in such a way that, you know, my hope is, is that we can do just that and, and that certainly most of my listeners do have some form of trauma, or my podcast has been been recommended to someone. And so I appreciate that. I do believe that your your presence here today is going to educate those of us that don’t live in the black and brown community. And those of us who care enough to listen, just listen. And so with that being said, however, as cool and as amazing as you are you do not get L of season three’s question which is so funny because I’ve say on every episode, people you’re you might be the only one that didn’t send back to me like, okay, of all the questions you sent me this first one that you asked me this icebreaker question is the hardest question of them all. And so, so Season Season three’s question Dr. Dr. Jackson is what is your favorite thing about how God made you

Dr. Catherine Jackson 3:29
so I can’t limit it to one. So I’m going to cheat. I’m just I’m just going to cheat I’m just going to let everybody know cheating. One of my most favorite things is just the way he made me in general and I have such a thirst and a love for for God like I strive to stay in close relationship with God. But also this is what I’m seeing. i One of the favorite things about how he made me is that I am Black and I am woman and even though oftentimes those are not very big deals within the society. I’m honored to be in that role like we’re expected oftentimes to be superhuman but then we’re treated as subhuman as black women. But if I if I got a choice like if we get to come back here again I would check this box again either with all the that comes with all that you have to lit up yeah a three different thing

Amy Watson 4:23
no I love it I love it and those are three amazing things and as image bearers and the fact that you’re just using what is difficult to exist in this world a as a woman we both know that but but be your your second only to black males as as being marginalized in this country at least in the United States of America. This podcast is listened to all over the world. And so I love that I love that you would pick it again because that means that your mind people like you’re you’re on this podcast with someone who who was white, who you know, for the most part and learning your your mind for fessor and these people who have come on to this series before have been our professors, which is I don’t know what any other way to learn, but I don’t think it’s fair. I will tell you that. And so now, here’s another thing that I would love to ask you before we jump into it. And you can have a little bit just answered it. You are the caboose on this series. So you’re so we’re going to talk about some of those episodes. But I wait the rear. Yeah, you’re at the Rio. That’s right. You’re bringing us home, Dr. Jackson, you’re bringing us home. But before we do that, I also had another question because, you know, if I were younger, I probably would go back to school to be a therapist. Although my heart is so soft, I’m not sure that I could do that. But what inspired you to be a therapist,

Dr. Catherine Jackson 5:39
so you’re gonna laugh just a little bit, I decided to become a mental health professional at the time, I didn’t know which, where and within the mental health field where I work, but I didn’t, I thought it was either I saw not so good treatment of people in high school by the school personnel and the in the mental health people were in the school. So I like so many kids, I thought I can do a better job and the adults became my life’s mission, my passion, and it’s part of just my my life ministry is doing this work. So I initially thought that I would go into psychiatry, but then I later realized that medication was not the way for me to treat people and I am not putting down are saying don’t take medication, because psychiatrists are an integral part of some people’s overall wellness plan. And medication is a part of that for some people. And I know great psychiatrists when I need to refer out for people. But for me, I just knew that I would do this in a talk therapy way. And then the more I got into the mental health field, working with people of color, the textbook therapy doesn’t always work for us. So I integrate brain based practices, and more integrative and holistic wellness practices into what I do with people as well. So it’s gotten really fine tuned over the years.

Amy Watson 7:11
And I am going to put your website in the show notes. The holistic approach fascinated me, I found myself as I was preparing for the interview, learning about you. And thank you for mentioning that because it can be a both an either or we’re all so different. I have complex PTSD, which we both know is still not in the DSM five diagnostic manual, which is so frustrating. And I have spent many years on and off of different medications depending on what is going on. I certainly have taken holistic approaches, I am in counseling and therapy and all of that. And so I was absolutely fascinated and probably will be talking a lot offline with you about some of that holistic modalities. So and I want listeners to do the same. And so we’re at we’re absolutely going to send them to you. But we’re going to dive in and like you said, we’re going to dive in deep. So what we’re going to do is the very first episode in this series, was with Tiffany Countryman and Malik coordinate, both of them, African Americans. And what I want to ask what I want to share with you is what they said and then kind of ask you a question. So on the first episode, we I had both of them together, because we’re kind of a we’re a tribe, we connected on clubhouse during the pandemic. And we held rooms together and we did all kinds of things. And in fact, this series was born out of a room that we had together, where it became abundantly clear to me that I didn’t understand the trauma of the black and brown communities. And so these two were amazing. So the first one was was Malika Courtney, and she told the story of she said, I want to pick something really basic for your listeners to understand. And so for her, she shared with me what she called hair trauma. And she shared with us. Yeah, she shared with us a story of, you know, a just the process of what you know, her mom, you know, put her through and the perms and hair burns and blisters and all the things. But the real trauma was her parents had moved her into a white suburb, and she was in a school where she was was in the minority and she literally got beat up and they pulled her what she called her weave out which which I you know, absolutely broke my heart. And again, you’re you’re here for educational purposes only want to make sure everybody understands that. But can you speak to her experience as being attacked by that and how that would affect a child and you’re shaking your head when I when I mentioned hair trauma. So I think that you probably could relate and so feel free to share anything that would help my listeners understand why that’s a significant trauma for families.

Dr. Catherine Jackson 9:35
Because both are hair and for men and women so for males and females within I don’t want to speak more specifically to the black community, more so than other bipoc communities. But our hair and our skin are very important to our overall and identity. And it doesn’t matter if you are a child or if you are an adult. This is an important thing. to us when we grow up, most of us grow up with that. But when you when she was talking about like the perms and the straightener, the hair and all of that, for some kids that can be traumatic in and of itself, because we’ve gone against the natural light texture like I get, I got natural textures. And these are braised their twist right now. And so but kind of going against that, so that we mesh in with the general society. And some people don’t want to do that. And so what’s been nice, in more recent years is seeing more appreciation, like us having more appreciation for like, you’ll see more women wearing their natural hair, and so on and so forth. So, in the US hairstyles have been so very stigmatized, like, kids will be sent home for certain hairstyles, some, some boys will have their hair like and wax, and on and on and be passed over for certain things in sports or in workwise. And some, some companies will say you can’t even wear your hair, particular way. So to work at a company, and then it goes to this whole thing with what’s presentable, what is professional, and by whose standards by the standards, because if, if I go to Africa, right, they’re not wearing their hair like yours, right? They’re wearing their hair and something even greater than going on here today. And that is professional for them. Wearing African cloths and prints that is professional. They’re so by whose standards and it’s not fair to people of color, when we try to push everybody into that same standard, what we need is more people to have more appreciation for all of the differences. Like I love seeing the ladies and I might be saying the the name of the thing like the Indian ladies, or they wear the hijab, I might be saying that wrong, though. And so please forgive me.

Amy Watson 12:10
I think that is I think that is how you say

Dr. Catherine Jackson 12:13
that, but then some people look at that. And then it is stigmatized, and it comes with a whole bunch of other negative connotations. So when you think about being a child, and you’re being attacked, period just being attacked, period is bad

Amy Watson 12:28
isn’t. That’s an adverse childhood experience? Well, yeah.

Dr. Catherine Jackson 12:32
But then if you when you think about that you’re being attacked for what you look like. And something that makes you unique, that definitely brings about a lot of trauma. And because at that point, that’s when our you know, we’re at key ages where the brain is still developing, we’re still developing identity, we’re still trying to understand the world as a whole. And then it can just turn into some, at its worst, it can turn into self hate, but then it makes you feel like you’re not worthy, you’re not good enough. And then if it really eats away at you, from at the core, it starts to turn into self hate. Because then you don’t, you don’t feel pretty enough, you don’t feel like you’re good enough, you don’t feel like you know, you fit into this world, when really it is the world that that is not accommodating and accepting of you.

Amy Watson 13:25
And that is why we’re doing this, if one person listened to these episodes, and makes a change and understand, when she told me that we didn’t, it was not on video, my jaw dropped, like, I never in a million years would have thought about it. And it just made my brain go in so many different directions. And it made me know that we were doing the right thing by doing this series and because in to your point, first of all, you’re born with what you’re born with, right? So I’m born with blonde, semi wavy pain in the butt here that I have to straighten because it’s got enough weight to be, you know, it’s kind of in between I’m born with when I’m born with and so Malika went home that day thinking I was born broken, you know, this is how I was born here is not something that you can I mean, you can alter it, you can change it and you can do but but but this is this is who I am. This is how God made me I came to this world with this, these follicles of hair that are going to come all throughout my life. And so hair is something that you can’t change

Dr. Catherine Jackson 14:24
before any before we go on and gas and the questions with that. So like you said, we’re born with certain hair, well, we can we can straighten it. We can do different things to and try to mesh into society. I don’t think we should have to but I love the differences that we all come with. But the same is true with skin. I just made me think of it as you were talking. So some people and I remember this from a class I said, you can go in and you can be Jewish and nobody knows. You can go in and you can be a part of the LGBT community and nobody knows. But what When you’re black, and sometimes even Brown, depending on the hue, we can’t take it off, we can’t straighten it out, we can’t, you know, change it and then change it back when we’re monks are people or anything? We’re black all the time. So that’s so powerful.

Amy Watson 15:15
It’s such a powerful point, right? Yeah. So so so these things that are stigmatized, and by bipoc communities, there are so many things that you can fix on air according when I say that, because I really should, you know, No, you shouldn’t have to, you should be able to do whatever you want to do, I do I wear my hair whatever way I want. Normally, I put it’s up in a ponytail 99%. And so, but that is a powerful, powerful point is that people in the black indigenous, you know, people of color communities are who you are, I am, I am incredibly, there is no pigment in my skin, there is not us SPF Sunscreen high enough for me, I can’t do anything about that. I’m saying, and so I just can’t do anything about it. I can’t do anything about it. And so to to judge me based on, on on how God put me on this planet is asinine to me, I will never understand it. i And you and I could talk for hours about that just on that one on that one thing that is so powerful. And I want that to breathe for a second. For my listeners think about this for a second. There is something that you were born with that a good portion of the world has a preconceived notion about that you cannot change. Think about living that life. I’m going to let that breathe just for a second. Think about living that life. The second person on that interview, Tiffany Countryman who is an absolute hoot trip, she is amazing. She’s Tift, the homie, countryman, and she does a bunch of things. She’s a playwright, which is why what she said to me was really interesting. She said, she felt like and she she weighed in a little bit on the hair, trauma. But she answered something very differently. She said, You know, my whole life, I was taught to act a certain way to say a certain, say, say certain things. And so when we look, I’m from the south, I still say Yes, ma’am. To people younger and older than me. And you know, people don’t quite say don’t say yes, ma’am, to me anymore. Because I’m, you know, I’m, I’m older than they are now that that that that switch has been flipped a little bit, but, but some of what she was talking about as basic manners, but but she said in her home, she said, and I quote, and I’m looking down, because I want to get it right. Black people have to act a certain way to not get judged or killed. And she said, for me, it was the loss of the ability to be who I am and to be creative was stifled. And I’m still trying to earn stifle that today, I was wondering if you can speak to that at all.

Dr. Catherine Jackson 18:01
So I grew up in a home, where being a part of I grew up in a black community, first of all, and being a part of the black community was very important. My parents still like, strong, black connection. And we’ve trickled that down to the younger generations in the family, too. So I feel really blessed to have had that. But I’ve had some experiences that were similar to what she she’s saying, like, as an adult. So none of that I didn’t have maybe because I grew up in a black community, I went to black schools. I didn’t start going to school with people of other races until I went to college. So got my BA. And then And then beyond the more I went up and became Dr. Jackson, the less of me I saw in different spaces. And especially being a black woman who specializes in neural, I’m often the only one at a lot of those conferences. So, you know, but my upbringing and the core of being black and having that, you know, a strong identity and connection to it is what helped me to buffer it. Because when I was doing my therapy practicum for my doctorate, one of my colleagues said something about what we were talking about here, you know, you just think two ladies talking about hair. She was a white colleague, and then I told her I was like, Yeah, you know, and I told her something about the hair hygiene of with black women and on and on, and she was like, oh, yeah, because your hair is dirty then and it was just Yeah, it was just so like I felt like your face looked and then stigma and you know, like that. It was like some stigma. It didn’t stick to me because of the strong way that I was brought up but I was just like, and it was just hurt ignorance. Knowing what the difference in our hair we cannot, you guys can wash your hair every day if you want, even though, like I’ve watched episodes Dr. Oz and he’s just sick don’t do that. And, and so but it was just like ah, and then with the whole thing of having to do things a certain way I remember being pulled over after working a 13 hour back to back to back, I do not recommend this to anybody. I don’t do this anymore as a as a psychologist myself, but I had 13 hours of Back to Back patients with very little like break, like the little break that you get just like to write your notes in between. And so I was extremely tired. And I stayed after to write notes, and I left just before. So I guess I was there long, 13 hours, but I left just before the alarm would come on at the office, I forgot to turn my lights on. And the police pulled me over. And this was during the time with Trayvon Martin and all the other major killings that were happening by police, to black people. And I was like, Oh, my goodness, and I was on the phone with a family member. So I put the phone down. I didn’t say I just said be quiet just in case on on and on and on. And then they and I didn’t know why they have pulled me over. They said it was because of the lights and on and on. But I was so afraid. And I don’t think I had that much of a threat. But I remember saying and I I didn’t know this was something I shouldn’t have even had to have said until I spoke to some other people at a place where I volunteered. They say you should never should have had to say that. But I said something like, because they were like, where are you coming from and I you know, on and on. And I was like, Oh, I’m Dr. Jackson, I’m coming from such and such a place. And I was like, oh from the hospital, I don’t work at the hospital, I worked at a place that was very close to the hospital. I just said yes, and on and on. And then I was like, but we we come up with whatever is going to save our life so we can get home. That’s it. And I said if if he thinks I’m a doctor, maybe he won’t do anything. And it was like a darker area and I should have drove to the lit areas that we have we say what we need to so that we can get back home to our family. So and I didn’t know I should never had to have like dropped the doctor thing to be safe and, and on and on. So nothing happened. Thank God, I don’t know if it was the doctor thing that helped everybody just say your doctor? Oh, yeah, seriously,

Amy Watson 22:25
I am. I want to say to you, I’m I’m so sorry. I mean, like my heart literally is just breaking. Because as a survivor of childhood abuse and domestic violence. I my whole life was about performing so that I so that I could not be identified by the things that had happened to me. For a lot of years when somebody asked me who I was, because we’re talking about, you know, we’re weaving identity a lot into this conversation. For a lot of years, when people asked me who I was, I would say, you know, my name is Amy Watson, I’m a CEO, I have a master’s degree, I’m a design, but this I’m at this. And then one day, I was at a speaking engagement, it flipped for me. The pastor said, Amy, tell the people who you are. And this is how I knew that the Lord had done some healing in my heart. And I didn’t say I’m all these things, letters behind my names are things that I had accomplished. Because I’ve spent a whole life performing. I said, my name is Amy Watson and I am a precious daughter of the Most High God. And I hope that if you ever get pulled over again, when that cop says whatever I am Katherine, and I am the precious daughter of the Most I got, ya know, get don’t get pulled over. I got pulled over. I got pulled over the other day. And he was he was really nice to me. But I was just like, I’m gonna get this ticket. But but he let me go,

Dr. Catherine Jackson 23:40
I usually will say I love to drop the doctor from it. But I will say this, and then I don’t want to spend too much time on it because I want to come back to the racial trauma talk. But working in print, primarily white spaces, I get treated a different way. I literally work at a group practice where they will say, Doctor, so and so we’re all doctors, we’re all psychologists and psychiatrists, like the whole practice is that except for interns, and so they will say doctor so and so and Dr. So and So and Dr. so and so and I hear them when their patients are checking in, they’ll say, Oh, you’re here for Dr. Sands, Oh, do you predict? And then when my patients check in or if they refer to me they say Katherine and it’s one of the reasons why I always say when people say what do you want to be called I say Dr. J, and it’s a silly reason to But Dr. Jackson, it’s not because I feel like I’m better than anybody else. But because I get highly disrespected and, and people will drop the doctor on me all the time, but say it for everybody else. Wow.

Amy Watson 24:46
That blows you’re a little bit shorter than Dr. J though.

Dr. Catherine Jackson 24:49
Yeah, I am. But that was why I went that’s why I say Dr. James.

Amy Watson 24:55
I love it and some of my listeners would be like who’s Dr. J? schoolwork. Well, yeah, basketball guy. That was really tall. Yeah. And we call him Dr. J. For the 76 years, I think I don’t even know much. I don’t I have no idea why I know that Dr. Jackson, no, no. Well listen, as somebody who has earned a master’s degree and is pursuing a doctorate degree myself, I can promise you, when I get that doctorate degree, I’m getting it. So people say Elementary, my dear Watson, or Dr. Watson, I presume and so. But that but But you said you wouldn’t talk too much about that, because you want to get back to racial trauma, that is racial trauma is yours. And that’s why you’re here today. And to that point, you

Dr. Catherine Jackson 25:38
see, racial trauma happens so much, I’ve never even put that together as a ratio 1,000% of the difference than of the way that I would be treated right.

Amy Watson 25:46
1,000%. And there will be a point where that we talk about trauma, I educate my listeners on what trauma is. And by definition, it is anything that moves us outside of that window of tolerance. And so if on any given day, you know, you’re you just made your massive payment on your student loans or on that, that that doctorate degree and somebody calls you, Catherine. Yeah, somebody calls you, Catherine. Yeah, you that is disrespectful, and that is traumatic, because it is not identify as not appreciating the hard work that you’ve done, and had to work double because you are not white, you know, and you are a woman on top of that. And so, so so no, I’m glad you threw that in there because that is racial trauma. And you said something there. That actually is a great segue into TJ night’s episode. TJ was a black male, and he came to the podcast, not was he is still he still here, y’all. TJ came to the podcast. I love TJ so much. He is loves Jesus loves people and wants people to love Jesus. And so but grew up in a difficult he had an ACE score of like seven or eight. And so this was not a dude that has not had trauma. But he he chose to share a trauma with us that we all know. And so I’m not going to rehash that it’s he got pulled over. And he he could tell, you know, probably 25 stories of being pulled over. And because he’s a black male being disrespected. But he said something on that episode that I want to pick your brain a little bit. As a psychologist, he said, Because I said to him, I said, I don’t want to have to make you my professor, I realized that in some ways, you what you’re doing here today, and I will say the same thing to you, Dr. Jackson as the opposite of bleeding on the people that didn’t cut you, even though I didn’t personally cut you, or cut TJ it was the opposite. And so I said, TJ, please help us know what can those of us that want to change? Because that was one thing that Tiffany said on her episode, as she said, as a complete sentence change. I said, What is one thing we can do? And here’s what he said, and I’m looking down again, because I don’t want to get it wrong. He said we didn’t want to answer mama taken off of the pancake syrup bottle. We didn’t have a problem with Uncle Ben’s, or any of the statues that were removed. All that happened with that was that white people felt better. We just want you to listen. Yeah. So my question to you. And this was power. This has a lot to unpack. But I say every time I exited microphone, the same five things to people, one of them is that you are heard. Can you talk to us about psychologically what it does when somebody actually shuts their mouth and listens instead of trying to fix it? Because TJ said, We don’t want you to fix it. We just want you to listen.

Dr. Catherine Jackson 28:41
I feel like when we take the time to listen to somebody,

we’re able to either without the words express a certain level of empathy for what they’re going through, even if you’ve never been through it. But when we rush to talk and rush to fix, oftentimes that comes off more as like sympathy. So I still feel so bad for your situation. It’s not that you can’t feel bad for it but when you listen, people feel heard. They feel seen and so rushing trying to fix it. Oftentimes that will take up space and sometimes and this has happened to me in some meetings especially after the George Floyd murder it then it the whole thing when people were trying to talk about it became more white tears and white fragile T and then it it just shifted from the people who were impacted by it or the most impacted by it and afraid for family members and even in my community which which which is a mixed community up at the gas station just straight up from my house. Like if I if I go a couple blocks a nice amount of blocks the first gas station near my home, somebody had put up a hate thing about like gold back to Africa or something like that, I can’t remember what the words were because I didn’t want to didn’t want to internalize it. But it was something to that effect. And this is a multicultural community. They didn’t want, I guess the black people who were starting to move over here, not even starting, we’ve been here, and on and on. So when you say, Listen, you just truly just listen and let the person express what is going on and express their pain without, like you said, bleeding on somebody and turning it to be about your pain for their pain, sort of stuffy, and we get it, we all go through, like you’ve heard all of these guests that you shared today. Your heart goes out to to them and the experiences that they went through. But you don’t switch it in, like I just feel so bad. And then the rest of the podcast becomes about how bad you feel about the racism that was done to them. So I hope that answered it.

Amy Watson 31:04
You Morgan has beautiful things in there. No, you more than answered and you hit on something that I was going to ask you anyway, because this was difficult for me to absorb myself, because I am an empath. And so I am likely to get teary when somebody tells me something sad. But you you use some words there that were convicting to even me. And I was going to bring this up anyway. So when TJ said we just want you to listen, because here’s the thing, there is one commodity on this planet that we all have, that once we spend it, we can’t get it back. And that is time. Right? Yeah. And so for him to come on and, and to say we just want you to listen. And then when we take our time out of our busy schedule, like you’ve done for me here today, and you have no idea how much I appreciate this. And because I’m honored because you are not being paid to do this for and so listeners out there when we just listened to somebody. And when TJ said that just made white people feel better. It feeds into your point. And I love the vernacular, you’re huge there. It became eternal, the George Floyd thing turned into white tears, and white fragility. Now listen, I absolutely sobbed over that. And I can’t unsee that knee on his jugular vein, I can’t unsee that as a human being. So I don’t want my listeners to think that we can’t be sad about it. But if you’re going to hold space, if you’re going to give the the only commodity that you have to someone that is that is a black or brown person or indigenous or, or anybody except for you, if you’re gonna sit down and give them your most precious commodity, then you’re telling them in a sense without saying a word, like if you just sit and listen and absorb what they’re hearing, as difficult as it is. My cousin called me out on this, she lives up in Canada, and she lived in Toronto for a good portion of her life. And that’s like a huge global melting pot and, and Toronto. And so she and I FaceTimed after after the George Floyd incident, and I was I was sobbing, she’s like you had to stop. And I said, huh, she says, that’s the problem. This didn’t happen to you. This didn’t happen to our community. This didn’t happen to you. It’s okay to be sad. And it’s okay to cry. But don’t do it in the presence of the person that’s trying to help you understand what it’s like to live

Dr. Catherine Jackson 33:32
events and sending her a virtual hug. Because, yes, and ask what is needed of the group that we are centering the group that we are focusing on at the moment, like we had the Asian hate attack, right. And so when we were having a meeting on that, then we will focus in on that group. It’s not, yes, I will cry. And I will cry before I get there. I will cry afterwards. But in this moment, I just want to hold the space and talk to talk to the Asian community about what they need from me as a person who’s not within Asian,

Amy Watson 34:09
right. And I think it’s a little bit you know, it’s a little bit like raising kids and some way to write like you, you know, you you focus in on what they what they need and listen to them. It’s not about you at that point. It is about the person sitting in front of you. And so if you are and one of the things that I did on all of these podcasts is admitted my white privilege now, that was not hard for me to say because again, as I as I’ve indicated to you and as my listeners know, I’m well educated I have a master’s degree in business administration. I was babysat by by well known serial killers. I survived a terrible childhood. I have an ACE score of nine. I am a domestic violence survivor and I am still white privileged. Still white privileged.

Dr. Catherine Jackson 34:59
Yes. Deep because you do a lot that people could focus on. But you still, I think you, you operate in a way that’s really different from a lot of people within your,

Amy Watson 35:10
well, I need. And that’s why we’re doing this because I really have a heart to help people. That’s why I do what I do. That’s why I do this podcast. I am so grateful to the Lord for what he has done for me, and my own trauma healing. And so it is all about my life versus Philippians 112, where the Bible says, I want you to understand that the things that have happened to me have really happened to further the gospel. That’s why I’m doing what I’m doing. I grew up in a predominantly black neighborhood. And so maybe that’s why I have a little bit of a different take on this. I don’t know. But what I know is I want to be part of that complete sentence, change period paragraph, and we’re going to talk about your app, I want to ask you one more question about the last interview, who was with genuine Rana and you and I are actually recording this episode on the day that Jen’s episode drops. So Jen is a podcasting friend of mine, and my age, too, right. And so, but but she and her husband through a series of events that only God could have orchestrated at 43 or 44, adopted a brother and sister who were biracial. And so I wanted to talk to her because that is something really sexy in the white community, particularly in the church. And there’s a lot of good to it, I have got really good friends that have adopted from other communities and other countries and all the things and I know that the black community has an opinion about that. And we’ll talk about that in just a second. But But Jen and her husband, Jen, Jim ended up with two biracial children. And she talked to me about her, she wanted to talk about the trauma that she’s worried about for these two children. They’re being raised in a white family, and I mean, white Chicago suburb, what you’re looking at right here, well educated. And so it’s not even like these kids go to school with people that look like them right there in white suburbs. And so I asked her a question, I said, What is your greatest fear for these children’s and it’s one of them as a little boy and little girl. And she said, you know, my greatest fear is, is that they will feel like they don’t fit in anywhere. Are they white enough for the white community? Are they black enough for the black community? And to your point earlier, we shouldn’t there, this should not even be a question. You shouldn’t have to change your hair, you can’t change your skin color. She shouldn’t have to worry about this, we should accept them because their precious children are the most high God, can you speak to that a little bit, because I do have quite a few of my listeners who have adopted outside of their culture and outside of their race. And there are some dynamics there that you probably can speak to both as a black woman and as a professional. And I would love to hear your opinion on that.

Dr. Catherine Jackson 37:46
So these are, these are my, my personal thoughts of this, definitely not more on a clinical basis, but from what I understand. Even even within my family, there’s interracial marriages. And so what I feel like, you know, we’re talking about being able to be like effective parents with somebody who looks different from you, or even if, if they have part of your genes, but then they might look different, and people are going to see them as that other thing. So like if it’s if you’re married, a white and a black person or married, that child might identify as interracial and love both sides, but a lot of times depending on especially depending on the hue, they will be seen as black, and treated as black. And so one of the big things from my own personal experience that I that comes from this, whether you adopt or it’s an interracial relationship, and you have interracial children, or biracial children is that love the whole culture, and then just the one person that you’re married to, because I see that a lot is that they love that black person, or they love that Latino person, but they don’t love all of it. And so if you don’t love all of what comes with the person, I just wonder if if if being in a interracial relationship is for you back then kids? Yeah, don’t look like you. If that’s a good thing, because you can, you can unknowingly still pass down some racist ways or trying to force the kids to be in and in spaces, because you’re coming from like your white perspective. We’re sort of

Amy Watson 39:45
space and she did share with me, which I thought was really cool. So they’re Caribbean and to your point, you know, not not all black people from Africa. So they are of Caribbean and so she talked a lot about the importance because she I had her on the podcast to talk to You because, you know, most of my listeners are Christians. And my church in particular, it has this amazing ministry that that works with a, with a with the state really and that that that ministry has been licensed to train foster parents. And so because of the dynamics of the black and brown community, you know, and you can correct me if I’m wrong on this, but they’re, you know, in the foster care system, at least in the state of Florida, it leans more heavily towards not white children being in the foster care system. So obviously, these these feel

Dr. Catherine Jackson 40:35
like this everywhere. I don’t know if it’s just Florida, like that’s a lot of different places where there are more children of color who are not worried adopted, because I don’t know that in our communities of color that we adopt as much as like the white community.

Amy Watson 40:52
Right. And and why is that you think I’m just curious?

Dr. Catherine Jackson 40:55
I don’t know. So that one I can’t, I don’t like I’ve never read anything, I’ve never researched it outright, just I don’t I don’t match your work.

Amy Watson 41:04
One of the things I really love about the black community in particular, and having grown up in a predominantly black neighborhood is just the Titan fitness, we talk a lot about committed community on my podcast, we have three C’s, we have church counseling and community, and just the tightness of of that community. And so I can kind of see and by the way, you’ve mentioned that about interracial marriages. So we are recording this on, on June the 15th. And yesterday, it was either yesterday or the day before was was was the Sunday or Monday. Yeah, they all run together at this point, Dr. Jackson, but after COVID I don’t even know what day it is half the time. But but it was a landmark anniversary of when interracial marriages became legal. And that that so was impressed on me as a child. My mom loved this movie. And I still can’t to this day think of it but that there was an old movie about a interracial couple, except for she was incredibly light skinned and 70. No, so no one knew that she was black. But I remember saying to my mom as a child, well, why can’t they be married? That doesn’t make any sense to me. And so and so when you mentioned that I immediately it popped up. But that’s good. That’s a good word. For those of you out there who are adopting from other cultures than yours, because Jen talked about on that interview, she was like, we celebrate their Caribbean culture. And this particular case, it was a bit of an open adoption, too. Even though there is no communication with the birth parents at this point. Jen knew that at some point when these kids get to be older. And this is true about any adopted kid not sure about me because my mom took all all of my childhood secrets with her when she left this planet. And that’s hard and not knowing where do I get this mannerism from like I you know, I talk with my hands or I talk fast, or where did I get this bent from? And where did I get that bent from? And so I can I get Jen just talked about the importance of immersing them in that Caribbean community. And that Caribbean culture, I guess, is what I should say.

Dr. Catherine Jackson 43:04
And that’s what I meant by love the, like, you want to accept, you don’t have to accept everything I don’t like everything about my culture, I wish the things we would get rid of, right? It’s a part of it, and I embrace, I embrace it. So accepting it and celebrating you can’t just love just these, you know, in her case, Caribbean kids, you got to have some kind of appreciation for all of it. And this is us the the show, it’s ended completely. This year, the whole,

Amy Watson 43:32
you know, the whole pride at every episode.

Dr. Catherine Jackson 43:34
But they did a great job of that because they had a black child. And so they did that modeled a really good way of how I feel like people who adopt out of the out of the race out of whatever, they’re racist, because I, if I adopted a Latino child, I would need to know about that culture. If I adopted somebody from overseas, even if their skin looks like mine, I still need to have an understanding of what they’re, you know, the differences in their culture,

Amy Watson 44:03
because we both know that their culture is embedded in their DNA, right. And so and so it is so, so important to do that. And so Jen, Jen mentioned, you know, she she gave some examples of, of how they do that. And so I just think that that circles back to identity, which you’ve been so great to talk to us about today. Well now is the fun part of the whole interview has been fun, but I love it when I get to it when the guest gets to talk about your passion, and how my listeners can go to your resources and get help now, You know, again, I know because of state lines and those things, but you’ve got this passion for the holistic portion of healing. That is so so impressive and fascinating to me and you had sent me an email after I sent you questions. You said hey, can we do this little exercise? But before we do that, because we’re literally going to close out on the exercise. I’m not even going to do my outro and so listeners you know that you’re listening to the Wednesdays with Watson podcasts on mobile We back in two weeks. But we’re going to end this episode a little bit differently today, after Dr. Jackson tells us a little bit about why she already told us why this is so important to her. And by the way, you don’t, it doesn’t have to be a medicine or a holistic approach. It can be a boat, that’s what I do. A lot of people call EMDR, a holistic approach that is absolutely what has absolutely saved saved my brain so many times. And so the mic is yours, my friend, tell my people about it about where they can find information on you. And then And then I’d love for you to exit us out of the interview with that exercise that you asked me if we could do.

Dr. Catherine Jackson 45:39
So. I’m not good at selling myself. I’m working on it. But I You can find me on my website, which is just my name. Dr. Katherine Jackson. And Katherine spelled the traditional way. My name is pretty much like Michael Jackson’s mom’s name, but with a C. Doc, Katherine

Amy Watson 46:00
Where can they find you on Instagram? A lot of my listeners, are you on Instagram? Yeah.

Dr. Catherine Jackson 46:04
So I’m all over the web I have. If you go to my website, you have a link tree to all of my most of my social media, but on Instagram is My name is Dr. Katherine Jackson. And you can find me at the same thing handle on clubhouse and on tick tock. I like to talk it’s fun way to share.

Amy Watson 46:24
I have I have I have dropped the TIC tock Kool Aid. I can’t tell you how many nights I’ve fallen asleep just doing this scrolling. More than saying St. And the algorithm that has given me is so interesting. It’s a mental health and chronically ill people, but I watch it. So okay, so guys, so you find her it’s Catherine with a see, doctor, don’t forget to put the doctor in front of it, or you will not find her. Alright, so talk to so I’ve been so excited about this, since you asked me the question. So talk to talk to us about what you want

Dr. Catherine Jackson 47:00
to do. I’m going to dim my lights because I don’t like bright lights, period. And it’s better to know when we’re doing a meditation. So we talked today a lot about racial trauma. And so we don’t want to end with that, right, we want to leave with that feeling within our bodies. And so we’re going to do a nice quick meditation together and just release some of that. Rather, you’re on the side of experiencing trauma, or whether you’re on the other side where you’re trying to understand the racial trauma. And you’re trying to get through this thing and be an ally. In this process. We’re all going to take some collective breaths together, meditate, and we’re going to release some of this out into the world.

And so for everybody who is listening, I want you to take a moment and get really comfortable wherever you are. You’re listening on your couch, get nice and comfy. If you’re listening and you’re sitting in your chair, just just get as comfortable as you can. And if at any time during this meditation, you find that your mind is starting to get distracted, no worries, just gently bring your mind back to this meditation and back to the breath.

So I want you to just take a deep breath in and as you slowly breathe out, just begin to truly settle your body and get grounded

then take another deep breath in this time as you breathe out, began to truly excellently relax your body, slowing down your thoughts. We’re gonna take one more nice deep breath in. I just want you to become aware of how you’re feeling on the inside

now let’s gently scan our bodies and notice any places of peace or any places of comfort. Notice where that shows up in your body.

Allow yourself to feel more and more of that comfort as you continue to breathe in and out nice and slow. But with no specific focus on your breathing So we want to just go a little bit deeper into the meditation. So take another deep breath in as you slowly begin to breathe out let’s focus on these affirmations you can say them aloud or you can save them in your head. I am at peace I feel safe and secure in my body I am a nurse and I am a part of the change I wish to see just let those affirmation sit for a moment as you continue to breathe in and out naturally

we’re gonna say these two more times I am at peace I feel safe and secure in my body I am enough I am part of the change I wish to see

one more time. This time I want you to take it nice and slow to fully embody and let yourself truly feel each of the affirmations I am at peace I feel safe and secure in my body I am enough I am a part of the change I wish to see just let that sit there for a moment as you breathe in and out slowly but naturally if you close your eyes to see slowly began to open them and we acclimate yourself to the room. You can wiggle your fingers and your toes softly it replays some things as the other spots ever you just go back into your day as you

Amy Watson 53:31
okay guys, I don’t know about you but I am at peace. And so as we close this episode and as we close the series I hope that you will always remember what I never leave a microphone without saying you are seen. You are known. You are heard love and you’re so so valued. Thank you Dr. Jackson. And can you teach me to use them on my mind

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